Kirk Crager and Todd Morr, Disciple-Making in Large and existing churches
Todd Morr is a missionary and leads Missional Made Simple with his wife Hannah from San Diego, CA. Learn more at missionalmadesimple.com Today we're joined with him and Kirk Crager, Discipleship Pastor at Calvary Boise and host of the Cultivate Community Conference May 13-14.
Transcript:
[00:00:00] : you're listening to the City Network podcast. Our mission is to grow and multiply healthy churches in the Treasure Valley and beyond. Head to the city network dot org for more info on our initiatives to catalyze church transformation and church planting. Here's today's podcast. All right, Welcome to the City Network podcast. My name is robert Frazier and I get the privilege to be a part of the team that leads same network and host the podcast with my friend josh Brandon. He's not here today, but today we have a couple of special guests. Um First off, I want to introduce to you uh Kirk Kreager who's a dear friend of mine, I think we know each other like 21 22 years, something like that. He's an old man, that's how, that's how, you know, you've known somebody for 22 years, they have gray in their hair. Yeah. And then Kirk Kirk, you've been overseas for about what, 15 of those years and then moved back just a few years ago and been part of um calvary Boise is the groups and community pastor, Welcome to the podcast. Hey, thanks robert Yeah, 17 years in Italy for three years and in England for 14 years. So crazy journey in that sense, like learning different cultures and experiencing just what God was doing in those places and then yeah, back here calvary Boise, Communities and mission aled discipleship pastor, that's kind of my role and what I'm supposed to be doing trying Yeah, I'm trying that's I think what we're all doing, trying Yeah, you and Kirk, you've invited uh my new friend Todd more to come join us. You have known Todd from your time in europe. But he's gonna be here in a couple of weeks and we wanted to introduce him to folks and his organization. Mission made simple. So would you just tell us a little bit about Todd before we jump in? Yeah, Todd and I first met in Manchester England. He came over, he was with some at the time and I think he came over through a friend of mine, James Deering down in Birmingham. We got connected, came up and met with a few of us pastors in Stockport was part of Manchester over there and just kind of connected and and really helped coach us through a little bit on the concepts of mission of community and what it looked like to live out the mission of God and community. And then I went down to Birmingham the next day and we had a little conference and we took some of our leaders and that was kind of transformative for our church in a lot of ways. Like it really helped to kind of coalesce a lot of the leadership lessons we were trying to kind of get across and learn ourselves at the time. So that's where I met Todd and then we just had a couple of connection points since then, I can't remember Todd, were you in the Czech Republic one time when I was there, I can't I know you're you're over there a lot but I think we might have met in Prague one time too. Yeah. So yeah, I lived in check for seven years and I helped organize that. It's probably the gathering we did when timothy came and uh we pulled in leaders for about 10 different countries. Yeah. Yeah. So that was great. Todd tell us a little bit about yourself, Tell us your your story, your journey really. You know the one minute version of what you've been doing and why? Why you're here? One minute version. Um Yeah, I grew up in Illinois midwesterner but God led me after I finished bible school and moody bible institute to eastern europe back in 1994. Um So it was just after the revolutions and we started planting youth ministries and then planting churches in some of the least churched, you know, countries in the world Less than 1%. So that's a big part of the story. What we're talking about here is um living a mission of life. How do we help, how do we help churches living that way back in Eastern Europe, we had no other choice, 99%. Unchurched not interested in church. Far from the church. So we had we have to figure out how to help organize what little Groups of Christians there were around these countries begin to admission only if anything was going to change. And so I've been doing that for the last 27 years, I help churches in about 25 countries currently. So I can give you stories literally from all over the place, all over eastern western europe, Australia, Japan, south africa, south America chile Colombia. Um and I don't know, 10 or 15 states in the US, so lots of different contexts, but the big theme, the big idea is the same. How do we, so we make disciples train the average christian to live a mission of life. What what what what what you're talking about is this, it seems so normal to a lot of us who have been thinking about like the mission will journey for the last 20 years, but like what we're talking about is a tectonic shift in the life of the church, like post reformation. That was very clergy centric. It was built around Individuals who had teaching gifts, building communities who were formed around the word but didn't see themselves as missionaries. They saw themselves as church people. They saw themselves as congregations. And then uh it's interesting as we sit around here because you know, Kirk, you were a missionary for 17 years Todd, you're a missionary for many years overseas. I was a missionary to teenagers and high schoolers for 25 years or for sorry, 17 years and all of us then as we approached pastoral ministry and as we approached like the work of reaching our cities here in the US all took a missionary approach to it and like that's obviously old. You look at like the missionary, the missionary movement was really built on Leslie, new begins teaching and he had been a missionary overseas with the Reform Church had come back to England in the middle of the 20th century and said Holy moly this place went from a christian nation, pre World War Two to a post christian nation that had that was itself emission field. But the church itself didn't have any idea it was in the mission field that thought that it was in a christianized nation. And so I think that obviously europe is 30 years ahead but America is living in that reality as as the last 10 years has rapidly moved us into a post christian reality across the country. We're in the right spot, I think, Todd, I love that you're coming and I'd love to hear more about what drove you to start mission. All made simple and what do you do when you jump in with the church who's saying, I want to make a shift away from a congregational model or prevailing model into a mission model. Yeah, great few few different questions there. Um I mean part part of my journey again, I've been connected to a lot of churches, big churches, small churches um overseas as well as in the US. And so I think, you know, you're you're hearkening back to the reformation and the priesthood of all believers and some of those realities and the reformation and the priesthood of believers never quite, never quite got there. It said it and they never did it. It was like I believe in the priesthood of all believers and you should sit there and learn for the rest of your life and not do anything that would be great. Yes and never defined it in terms of mission, which that should have been front and center to be a faithful disciple of Jesus. I don't see how we read the new testament in any other way. The average disciple is meant to be a missionary meant to be a fisher of men Luke five jesus said, hey guys, why don't you follow me? Let's be clear about the goal fish for men. It's to go on mission together to make disciples to be witnesses, Jerusalem judea samaria against the earth so that throughout the new testament is just sent central foundational. But why have we not defined a mature disciple in that way? Mm hmm. That's been part of my conviction for these years is to say we've got to redefine disciple, mature disciple and then we got to define the process of discipleship largely. So here that not completely but largely in terms of mission, that's great. Um I'm just gonna shut my door because my kids are about to get home from school. I love you, I love you talk a little bit about um what what drove you to start mission made simple, like as, as you've been, you've been back in the States for a little while now, but you're in san Diego and what's what's driving the engagement with the local church and here here in the valley as you come up to Boise good. So yeah, Michelle made simple. The platform that I'm currently leading, developing actually came from all these different contexts that I described Eastern europe, south America, south africa talking with these churches and hearing them consistently say, man, we love what you're talking about. How do we train our people to get it? How do we train our people to actually live this way? Because we tried some things and it's been too complicated, it's been too cumbersome and I realized it doesn't need to be mission. Living on mission, living as a community on mission is not that complicated. So our training does not need to be that complicated. Our coaching does not need to be that complicated how we organize our churches does not need to be that complicated. It can be simple. Yeah, when when we planted our congregation five years ago, someone recommended a group that helps with project management for church planters and they gave me no joke, this was a checklist of 400 items That I needed to do for the starting of a church congregation, 400 items of a to do list, some of them were extensive and none of them not a single one had to do with discipleship or evangelism. all of them were about the formation of the organization and I think that that is the primary lens through which people think about mission is I start an organization and then that organization somehow magically makes an impact, but doesn't include that evangelism and discipleship is the center of it. And so I think you're right, like how do we do that? So when you think about simplifying church planting, when you think of simplifying mission, like what, what are the things that need to go away for us to simplify again a lot of our systems and programs and Leadership structures are very, very complex or very just too too complicated. So we've got to say if we're going to make disciples of all nations or a place like Boise, we'll just say 90% under churched or unchurched, we'll say 90% we need an army of people engaged in that, where's that army gonna come from? Just the highly trained ones, it's not gonna happen, it's not going to happen if the average christian and Boise does not see themselves as part of the team, part of the solution, part of the family that is working together to influence the city of Boise and the area around Boise for the kingdom. So it's gotta be simple enough, clear enough for the average christian to be able to get excited about it, get motivated to live their everyday life with this kind of purpose. Gotta be simple enough. It's gotta be clear enough, you're gonna hear me say that a lot. So what are some of those things? I think again, how we define mission? So it's not a big complicated program. It's literally everyday life, It's part of the cool design that God has in all of this. Our everyday lives, our mission field school, our kids activities, our workplaces where we shop, where we go for a coffee, it's all mission field because it's full of lost people. So then we need to ask the question, how do we steward this for the kingdom? How do we organize our lives in such a way that we can actually influence these lost people at work at school, at the park when we walk the dog? Why don't we go get coffee all the time? But I believe that's possible. I believe it's in God's design. So it's everyday life which God has already built around us. It doesn't require a lot of money to do. It doesn't require a big program to do. It simply requires relational intentionality at work at school in the neighborhood, at youth soccer coaching a little league, getting coffee at our favorite coffee shop, all those places, relational intentionality. What what are you gonna do if we don't have programs to run a business here. There's there's still some work for some pastors to do. It's a different kind of work though, which is like, that's really what you're getting after is what's the kind of work that pastors then do if, if the people are the priests all of a sudden our role then is organizing and coaching. Yeah, absolutely, So that's, that's the Ephesians four model, you're talking about where the apostles, prophets, evangelists, shepherds and teachers are given to the church for the building up of the saints for the work of ministry, That's the flow, I love that. So where um what do you think the average christian, the average follower of jesus needs to become a missionary, Like what's, what are the mindset shifts, where do most of them need that level of training? Okay, I might step on some toes here, sorry about that, there's no toes here, we, there's no one watching, it's a very small audience, just say whatever you want todd Okay, the Western Church, again, I'm going to do some broad sweeping, but I feel like I can, because again, I work in dozens of countries and hundreds of churches, so I've got a pretty good case study here to prove my point, but the church for the last 50 7500 years has structured itself in such a way and set expectations that were largely about church going, not disciple making, that's part of the mind shift. The average christian needs to see that they're calling and their identity is not to attend a church meeting church program though, Those things are okay to support the mission, They're just not the mission. Well, like in the 90s, a church would say, here's what you're supposed to do, you're supposed to attend, you're supposed to give, you're supposed to serve and you're supposed to invite and all four of those things happen on Sundays at church. That was, that was everything. And so like let's put those upside down, what's that look like an additional like what, what's the ask for somebody? Okay, again, it's the antithesis of that. Yeah, it's not, it's not come to a centralized location. It's going your everyday life and decentralized the mission because the mission is already built into your daily life, it's your neighbors, that your neighborhood, it's teachers from your kid's school where their sports teams is your coworkers that you spend eight or nine hours with every day. The mission is already there. It's not bring them into a centralized location. It's go to them because let's be honest, even back in the heyday of mega church, you know, stuff, there was still a large majority of people not coming. There was a select group of people that liked to come to centralized meetings and programs and events. So they did, that still was not a large majority of the population. So now today a portion of those, others are no longer coming to the big thing. So if the church does not reset itself reform itself to be goers, that's why we keep saying missionary and mission, that's just what it is, it's going, it's pursuing, but we need to be about that organizing ourselves to do that every day and not to do it alone as solo missionaries. So that's been part of the problem. Why a lot of ultra christian who can do it on their own? Yeah, yeah, I had a big church, there's a mega church here in southern California that they like what I do or what we do, but they, he used this language, he said you guys are like ninja christians and it was actually very sad to hear that. Yeah, because because he didn't see that it was available to everybody. Exactly, yeah, yeah. It should not be seen as maybe seals or ninja or super christian, it's just normal, jesus stuff. But part of the problem has been many christians think they're supposed to do it alone. We're not, we're supposed to do it together in communities. That's why you're going to hear me use the term mission elite community and I don't even care what namely views doesn't matter. It's just a community of people to be a small group called small group, a small group of people that believe they're supposed to go together, support each other together, encourage each other together on mission in everyday life, that's all we're talking about. So if you're a big church with small groups, I'm gonna challenge you don't, don't blow up your structure, just revitalize it, reform it so that each one of those small groups becomes a mission group. So let's say you had like a groups pastor of a large church of a couple of 1000 okay. And he was sitting right here and, and he was trying to take his small group ministry and turn it into additional, you know, direction. Like someone like Kirk, I guess I'm what, like, what's, what's the, how do you make? Because that's a seismic shift for a church that and, you know, most large churches are large because they've been good at attracting people and I would say evangelistic lee, I think large churches do a great job at the beginning of people's journeys because they can, they can belong and they can listen and they can, they can get their feet wet before they jump in. I think that there's a place for that, but then like for Kirk to say, okay, how do, how are we making disciples and how we create disciple making communities like what, what do you, what do you want him to do in a place like that? I'm really, I'm really interested now, so I gotta hear this that I hope you don't mind, I hope you don't lose your job here though, Kirk, Okay, Yeah, we'll try not to, but that's okay either way, but it's all good again, I work with a lot of big churches, so I'm very aware of what you're talking about here, robert. Okay. I was actually in one of the largest churches in America. Okay. For a time popularized small groups. Was that a good thing? Yes. Because actually pre small group phenomena, churches didn't even have, that actually wasn't a bad thing. I say it like this. It was a limited thing. Not a bad thing. Just a limited thing because it was primarily designed for education and a bit of fellowship. Fellowship, not bad things. Just limited things. Okay, what are the other things I'm just gonna name to? I'm going to keep it simple. I already told you that. I believe it's not that complicated. Okay. Do we need small groups for bible study and education. Absolutely. But not only only a percentage of the time of the life of a small group should be engaged in that. What else do they need? I'm gonna say to other priorities. Family and missions. That's how I describe them. What do I mean, my family, it's much, much deeper than fellowship. It's a commitment to go deep into each other's lives, support each other, sacrifice for each other, encourage each other, Speak the gospel to each other like a family because you can't do that with a couple of 1000 even this, our churches like, you know, 100 and 50 to 200. We can't, we can't live as a family. We can live as, as an extended family, but not as a family, it's only in that unit of 15 to 30 where that can happen? Yeah, no, I think that that's that's that's just relational dynamics, it's gotta be smaller, okay, it's gotta be smaller for people to go deeper for people to be consistent in those relationships gotta be and I'll be talking about more, I'll be talking more about that when I come to Boise. Okay, so family, one of those priorities, so education, I'm okay with that bible, Good thing, I'm a bible guy, bible school with graduate school, I'm a bible guy, so bible one priority, family, second priority mission, third priority. Much of what a disciple needs to become a fully formed disciple of jesus, his mission,...
Transcript:
[00:00:00] : you're listening to the City Network podcast. Our mission is to grow and multiply healthy churches in the Treasure Valley and beyond. Head to the city network dot org for more info on our initiatives to catalyze church transformation and church planting. Here's today's podcast. All right, Welcome to the City Network podcast. My name is robert Frazier and I get the privilege to be a part of the team that leads same network and host the podcast with my friend josh Brandon. He's not here today, but today we have a couple of special guests. Um First off, I want to introduce to you uh Kirk Kreager who's a dear friend of mine, I think we know each other like 21 22 years, something like that. He's an old man, that's how, that's how, you know, you've known somebody for 22 years, they have gray in their hair. Yeah. And then Kirk Kirk, you've been overseas for about what, 15 of those years and then moved back just a few years ago and been part of um calvary Boise is the groups and community pastor, Welcome to the podcast. Hey, thanks robert Yeah, 17 years in Italy for three years and in England for 14 years. So crazy journey in that sense, like learning different cultures and experiencing just what God was doing in those places and then yeah, back here calvary Boise, Communities and mission aled discipleship pastor, that's kind of my role and what I'm supposed to be doing trying Yeah, I'm trying that's I think what we're all doing, trying Yeah, you and Kirk, you've invited uh my new friend Todd more to come join us. You have known Todd from your time in europe. But he's gonna be here in a couple of weeks and we wanted to introduce him to folks and his organization. Mission made simple. So would you just tell us a little bit about Todd before we jump in? Yeah, Todd and I first met in Manchester England. He came over, he was with some at the time and I think he came over through a friend of mine, James Deering down in Birmingham. We got connected, came up and met with a few of us pastors in Stockport was part of Manchester over there and just kind of connected and and really helped coach us through a little bit on the concepts of mission of community and what it looked like to live out the mission of God and community. And then I went down to Birmingham the next day and we had a little conference and we took some of our leaders and that was kind of transformative for our church in a lot of ways. Like it really helped to kind of coalesce a lot of the leadership lessons we were trying to kind of get across and learn ourselves at the time. So that's where I met Todd and then we just had a couple of connection points since then, I can't remember Todd, were you in the Czech Republic one time when I was there, I can't I know you're you're over there a lot but I think we might have met in Prague one time too. Yeah. So yeah, I lived in check for seven years and I helped organize that. It's probably the gathering we did when timothy came and uh we pulled in leaders for about 10 different countries. Yeah. Yeah. So that was great. Todd tell us a little bit about yourself, Tell us your your story, your journey really. You know the one minute version of what you've been doing and why? Why you're here? One minute version. Um Yeah, I grew up in Illinois midwesterner but God led me after I finished bible school and moody bible institute to eastern europe back in 1994. Um So it was just after the revolutions and we started planting youth ministries and then planting churches in some of the least churched, you know, countries in the world Less than 1%. So that's a big part of the story. What we're talking about here is um living a mission of life. How do we help, how do we help churches living that way back in Eastern Europe, we had no other choice, 99%. Unchurched not interested in church. Far from the church. So we had we have to figure out how to help organize what little Groups of Christians there were around these countries begin to admission only if anything was going to change. And so I've been doing that for the last 27 years, I help churches in about 25 countries currently. So I can give you stories literally from all over the place, all over eastern western europe, Australia, Japan, south africa, south America chile Colombia. Um and I don't know, 10 or 15 states in the US, so lots of different contexts, but the big theme, the big idea is the same. How do we, so we make disciples train the average christian to live a mission of life. What what what what what you're talking about is this, it seems so normal to a lot of us who have been thinking about like the mission will journey for the last 20 years, but like what we're talking about is a tectonic shift in the life of the church, like post reformation. That was very clergy centric. It was built around Individuals who had teaching gifts, building communities who were formed around the word but didn't see themselves as missionaries. They saw themselves as church people. They saw themselves as congregations. And then uh it's interesting as we sit around here because you know, Kirk, you were a missionary for 17 years Todd, you're a missionary for many years overseas. I was a missionary to teenagers and high schoolers for 25 years or for sorry, 17 years and all of us then as we approached pastoral ministry and as we approached like the work of reaching our cities here in the US all took a missionary approach to it and like that's obviously old. You look at like the missionary, the missionary movement was really built on Leslie, new begins teaching and he had been a missionary overseas with the Reform Church had come back to England in the middle of the 20th century and said Holy moly this place went from a christian nation, pre World War Two to a post christian nation that had that was itself emission field. But the church itself didn't have any idea it was in the mission field that thought that it was in a christianized nation. And so I think that obviously europe is 30 years ahead but America is living in that reality as as the last 10 years has rapidly moved us into a post christian reality across the country. We're in the right spot, I think, Todd, I love that you're coming and I'd love to hear more about what drove you to start mission. All made simple and what do you do when you jump in with the church who's saying, I want to make a shift away from a congregational model or prevailing model into a mission model. Yeah, great few few different questions there. Um I mean part part of my journey again, I've been connected to a lot of churches, big churches, small churches um overseas as well as in the US. And so I think, you know, you're you're hearkening back to the reformation and the priesthood of all believers and some of those realities and the reformation and the priesthood of believers never quite, never quite got there. It said it and they never did it. It was like I believe in the priesthood of all believers and you should sit there and learn for the rest of your life and not do anything that would be great. Yes and never defined it in terms of mission, which that should have been front and center to be a faithful disciple of Jesus. I don't see how we read the new testament in any other way. The average disciple is meant to be a missionary meant to be a fisher of men Luke five jesus said, hey guys, why don't you follow me? Let's be clear about the goal fish for men. It's to go on mission together to make disciples to be witnesses, Jerusalem judea samaria against the earth so that throughout the new testament is just sent central foundational. But why have we not defined a mature disciple in that way? Mm hmm. That's been part of my conviction for these years is to say we've got to redefine disciple, mature disciple and then we got to define the process of discipleship largely. So here that not completely but largely in terms of mission, that's great. Um I'm just gonna shut my door because my kids are about to get home from school. I love you, I love you talk a little bit about um what what drove you to start mission made simple, like as, as you've been, you've been back in the States for a little while now, but you're in san Diego and what's what's driving the engagement with the local church and here here in the valley as you come up to Boise good. So yeah, Michelle made simple. The platform that I'm currently leading, developing actually came from all these different contexts that I described Eastern europe, south America, south africa talking with these churches and hearing them consistently say, man, we love what you're talking about. How do we train our people to get it? How do we train our people to actually live this way? Because we tried some things and it's been too complicated, it's been too cumbersome and I realized it doesn't need to be mission. Living on mission, living as a community on mission is not that complicated. So our training does not need to be that complicated. Our coaching does not need to be that complicated how we organize our churches does not need to be that complicated. It can be simple. Yeah, when when we planted our congregation five years ago, someone recommended a group that helps with project management for church planters and they gave me no joke, this was a checklist of 400 items That I needed to do for the starting of a church congregation, 400 items of a to do list, some of them were extensive and none of them not a single one had to do with discipleship or evangelism. all of them were about the formation of the organization and I think that that is the primary lens through which people think about mission is I start an organization and then that organization somehow magically makes an impact, but doesn't include that evangelism and discipleship is the center of it. And so I think you're right, like how do we do that? So when you think about simplifying church planting, when you think of simplifying mission, like what, what are the things that need to go away for us to simplify again a lot of our systems and programs and Leadership structures are very, very complex or very just too too complicated. So we've got to say if we're going to make disciples of all nations or a place like Boise, we'll just say 90% under churched or unchurched, we'll say 90% we need an army of people engaged in that, where's that army gonna come from? Just the highly trained ones, it's not gonna happen, it's not going to happen if the average christian and Boise does not see themselves as part of the team, part of the solution, part of the family that is working together to influence the city of Boise and the area around Boise for the kingdom. So it's gotta be simple enough, clear enough for the average christian to be able to get excited about it, get motivated to live their everyday life with this kind of purpose. Gotta be simple enough. It's gotta be clear enough, you're gonna hear me say that a lot. So what are some of those things? I think again, how we define mission? So it's not a big complicated program. It's literally everyday life, It's part of the cool design that God has in all of this. Our everyday lives, our mission field school, our kids activities, our workplaces where we shop, where we go for a coffee, it's all mission field because it's full of lost people. So then we need to ask the question, how do we steward this for the kingdom? How do we organize our lives in such a way that we can actually influence these lost people at work at school, at the park when we walk the dog? Why don't we go get coffee all the time? But I believe that's possible. I believe it's in God's design. So it's everyday life which God has already built around us. It doesn't require a lot of money to do. It doesn't require a big program to do. It simply requires relational intentionality at work at school in the neighborhood, at youth soccer coaching a little league, getting coffee at our favorite coffee shop, all those places, relational intentionality. What what are you gonna do if we don't have programs to run a business here. There's there's still some work for some pastors to do. It's a different kind of work though, which is like, that's really what you're getting after is what's the kind of work that pastors then do if, if the people are the priests all of a sudden our role then is organizing and coaching. Yeah, absolutely, So that's, that's the Ephesians four model, you're talking about where the apostles, prophets, evangelists, shepherds and teachers are given to the church for the building up of the saints for the work of ministry, That's the flow, I love that. So where um what do you think the average christian, the average follower of jesus needs to become a missionary, Like what's, what are the mindset shifts, where do most of them need that level of training? Okay, I might step on some toes here, sorry about that, there's no toes here, we, there's no one watching, it's a very small audience, just say whatever you want todd Okay, the Western Church, again, I'm going to do some broad sweeping, but I feel like I can, because again, I work in dozens of countries and hundreds of churches, so I've got a pretty good case study here to prove my point, but the church for the last 50 7500 years has structured itself in such a way and set expectations that were largely about church going, not disciple making, that's part of the mind shift. The average christian needs to see that they're calling and their identity is not to attend a church meeting church program though, Those things are okay to support the mission, They're just not the mission. Well, like in the 90s, a church would say, here's what you're supposed to do, you're supposed to attend, you're supposed to give, you're supposed to serve and you're supposed to invite and all four of those things happen on Sundays at church. That was, that was everything. And so like let's put those upside down, what's that look like an additional like what, what's the ask for somebody? Okay, again, it's the antithesis of that. Yeah, it's not, it's not come to a centralized location. It's going your everyday life and decentralized the mission because the mission is already built into your daily life, it's your neighbors, that your neighborhood, it's teachers from your kid's school where their sports teams is your coworkers that you spend eight or nine hours with every day. The mission is already there. It's not bring them into a centralized location. It's go to them because let's be honest, even back in the heyday of mega church, you know, stuff, there was still a large majority of people not coming. There was a select group of people that liked to come to centralized meetings and programs and events. So they did, that still was not a large majority of the population. So now today a portion of those, others are no longer coming to the big thing. So if the church does not reset itself reform itself to be goers, that's why we keep saying missionary and mission, that's just what it is, it's going, it's pursuing, but we need to be about that organizing ourselves to do that every day and not to do it alone as solo missionaries. So that's been part of the problem. Why a lot of ultra christian who can do it on their own? Yeah, yeah, I had a big church, there's a mega church here in southern California that they like what I do or what we do, but they, he used this language, he said you guys are like ninja christians and it was actually very sad to hear that. Yeah, because because he didn't see that it was available to everybody. Exactly, yeah, yeah. It should not be seen as maybe seals or ninja or super christian, it's just normal, jesus stuff. But part of the problem has been many christians think they're supposed to do it alone. We're not, we're supposed to do it together in communities. That's why you're going to hear me use the term mission elite community and I don't even care what namely views doesn't matter. It's just a community of people to be a small group called small group, a small group of people that believe they're supposed to go together, support each other together, encourage each other together on mission in everyday life, that's all we're talking about. So if you're a big church with small groups, I'm gonna challenge you don't, don't blow up your structure, just revitalize it, reform it so that each one of those small groups becomes a mission group. So let's say you had like a groups pastor of a large church of a couple of 1000 okay. And he was sitting right here and, and he was trying to take his small group ministry and turn it into additional, you know, direction. Like someone like Kirk, I guess I'm what, like, what's, what's the, how do you make? Because that's a seismic shift for a church that and, you know, most large churches are large because they've been good at attracting people and I would say evangelistic lee, I think large churches do a great job at the beginning of people's journeys because they can, they can belong and they can listen and they can, they can get their feet wet before they jump in. I think that there's a place for that, but then like for Kirk to say, okay, how do, how are we making disciples and how we create disciple making communities like what, what do you, what do you want him to do in a place like that? I'm really, I'm really interested now, so I gotta hear this that I hope you don't mind, I hope you don't lose your job here though, Kirk, Okay, Yeah, we'll try not to, but that's okay either way, but it's all good again, I work with a lot of big churches, so I'm very aware of what you're talking about here, robert. Okay. I was actually in one of the largest churches in America. Okay. For a time popularized small groups. Was that a good thing? Yes. Because actually pre small group phenomena, churches didn't even have, that actually wasn't a bad thing. I say it like this. It was a limited thing. Not a bad thing. Just a limited thing because it was primarily designed for education and a bit of fellowship. Fellowship, not bad things. Just limited things. Okay, what are the other things I'm just gonna name to? I'm going to keep it simple. I already told you that. I believe it's not that complicated. Okay. Do we need small groups for bible study and education. Absolutely. But not only only a percentage of the time of the life of a small group should be engaged in that. What else do they need? I'm gonna say to other priorities. Family and missions. That's how I describe them. What do I mean, my family, it's much, much deeper than fellowship. It's a commitment to go deep into each other's lives, support each other, sacrifice for each other, encourage each other, Speak the gospel to each other like a family because you can't do that with a couple of 1000 even this, our churches like, you know, 100 and 50 to 200. We can't, we can't live as a family. We can live as, as an extended family, but not as a family, it's only in that unit of 15 to 30 where that can happen? Yeah, no, I think that that's that's that's just relational dynamics, it's gotta be smaller, okay, it's gotta be smaller for people to go deeper for people to be consistent in those relationships gotta be and I'll be talking about more, I'll be talking more about that when I come to Boise. Okay, so family, one of those priorities, so education, I'm okay with that bible, Good thing, I'm a bible guy, bible school with graduate school, I'm a bible guy, so bible one priority, family, second priority mission, third priority. Much of what a disciple needs to become a fully formed disciple of jesus, his mission,...
